Discussion:
Purpose Driven Church
(too old to reply)
Z a n e
2004-07-13 19:58:43 UTC
Permalink
HI all,

I notice on the jacket of this popular book that the author claims that
Saddleback Church went from one family to 10,000 members "without owning a
building" over a period of 15 years. That's interesting to me on two
accounts. Does he actually believe a church could consist of one family? Does
he, Rick Warren, encourage churches not to build buildings?

He does address the second issue in the book with the assumption that
buildings will eventually follow.

I stood there and thumbed through the pages, knowing that I didn't need such
a book right then. That's not to suggest that it's filled with errors or is
totally useless. Far from it. Compared to some of the other books in the
"devotional section" it looked pretty good.

But think of it, here's the ground-up account of the most successful church
in the USA in terms of the numbers. It comes across as a how to book for
others wanting to expand. Yet the issue of church structure/leadership is
carefully avoided. Warren explains that his views on the subject are revealed
in a cassette tape and that the purpose of the Purpose Driven Church is not
to examine such (highly controversial) issues. Since he refers to himself as
THE Pastor, I suppose I can connect most of the dots from there. And since he
is trying to appeal to just about every denomination under the sun, to
highlight any specific kind of leadership or structure would necessarily
offend more than a few.

Needless to say, there is page after page of ways to get the laity involved.

Rick Warren, an apparent marketing genius, also founded pastors.com and
purposedriven.com... He quickly followed up "Purpose Driven Life" with
several companion products - things like a P D Workbook, A P D Diary, and an
"Inspiration for the P D Life" book. Also, a P D Leaders Kit! Churches pay
thousands of dollars, depending on their size, to do the Purpose Driven
program.

Like some in the house church circle Rick believes his books are starting "a
New Reformation." I wonder if it crossed his mind that putting his books on
the internet to be downloaded without cost would greatly increase his
audience and thus hasten the coming of his "New Reformation?"

Such a bold move might actually increase his sales in the long run and other
Christian authors would also be forced to consider the idea of freely given,
freely receive. Who know where that might go?

Just a few observations from my trip to Wal*Mart, last night, while most of
you were asleep. You are entirely free to disagree. Who can argue with
success, anyway?

Zane Anderson
Jim
2004-07-15 16:59:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Z a n e
Just a few observations from my trip to Wal*Mart, last night, while most of
you were asleep. You are entirely free to disagree. Who can argue with
success, anyway?
Zane Anderson
That's right. Hey, if it works, it must be right. (ahem)


Jim
Mark
2004-07-16 02:00:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Z a n e
But think of it, here's the ground-up account of the most successful church
in the USA in terms of the numbers. It comes across as a how to book for
others wanting to expand. Yet the issue of church structure/leadership is
carefully avoided. Warren explains that his views on the subject are revealed
in a cassette tape and that the purpose of the Purpose Driven Church is not
to examine such (highly controversial) issues. Since he refers to himself as
THE Pastor, I suppose I can connect most of the dots from there. And since he
is trying to appeal to just about every denomination under the sun, to
highlight any specific kind of leadership or structure would necessarily
offend more than a few.
Needless to say, there is page after page of ways to get the laity involved.
Rick Warren, an apparent marketing genius, also founded pastors.com and
purposedriven.com... He quickly followed up "Purpose Driven Life" with
several companion products - things like a P D Workbook, A P D Diary, and an
"Inspiration for the P D Life" book. Also, a P D Leaders Kit! Churches pay
thousands of dollars, depending on their size, to do the Purpose Driven
program.
Greetings,

Zane and others,

Thought I would respond to some of your comments. It's helpful in
understanding
where Rick is coming from that he's a Southern Baptist. Their very big on
THE pastor
concept. One of the problem I had with the book was that while it's full of
ideas to make
a church grow, he really doesn't say how to implement these ideas in a
established church.
I think that is because he started Saddleback from scratch and didn't have
to deal with an
established congregation. I have a problem with his obvious marketing of
the Purpose
Driven concept. It doesn't sit right with me, because one of the concept of
Christianity is
the idea of "freely receive, freely give".
A book that I really like along the same lines is "Building a
Contagious Church" by
Mark Mittelberg. Yeah. I know he's on staff at Willow Creek in Chicago, but
the book
is much more comprehensive, starting out with an overview of today's culture
and why the way we
reach out to non-believers is going to have to change and ends with
suggesting ways we
can evangelize that fit our personalities. The emphasizes in the book is
getting all church members
involved in outreach, which impresses me since I belong to a denomination
and church that
emphasizes lay involvement in all areas of church life and down play THE
pastor idea As an
Elder in my church at time when we're trying to grow and revitalize the
church, I found this book much
more helpful.than Waren's book.

Yours in Christ,
Mark Fawcett
c***@velocitus.net
2004-12-02 22:02:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Z a n e
Post by Z a n e
But think of it, here's the ground-up account of the most successful
church
Post by Z a n e
in the USA in terms of the numbers. It comes across as a how to book for
others wanting to expand. Yet the issue of church structure/leadership is
carefully avoided. Warren explains that his views on the subject are
revealed
Post by Z a n e
in a cassette tape and that the purpose of the Purpose Driven Church is
not
Post by Z a n e
to examine such (highly controversial) issues. Since he refers to himself
as
Post by Z a n e
THE Pastor, I suppose I can connect most of the dots from there. And since
he
Post by Z a n e
is trying to appeal to just about every denomination under the sun, to
highlight any specific kind of leadership or structure would necessarily
offend more than a few.
Needless to say, there is page after page of ways to get the laity
involved.
Post by Z a n e
Rick Warren, an apparent marketing genius, also founded pastors.com and
purposedriven.com... He quickly followed up "Purpose Driven Life" with
several companion products - things like a P D Workbook, A P D Diary, and
an
Post by Z a n e
"Inspiration for the P D Life" book. Also, a P D Leaders Kit! Churches pay
thousands of dollars, depending on their size, to do the Purpose Driven
program.
Greetings,
Zane and others,
Thought I would respond to some of your comments. It's helpful in
understanding
where Rick is coming from that he's a Southern Baptist. Their very big on
THE pastor
concept. One of the problem I had with the book was that while it's full of
ideas to make
a church grow, he really doesn't say how to implement these ideas in a
established church.
I think that is because he started Saddleback from scratch and didn't have
to deal with an
established congregation. I have a problem with his obvious marketing of
the Purpose
Driven concept. It doesn't sit right with me, because one of the concept of
Christianity is
the idea of "freely receive, freely give".
Don't you pay your pastors? The Apostle Paul accepted pay.
Post by Z a n e
A book that I really like along the same lines is "Building a
Contagious Church" by
Mark Mittelberg. Yeah. I know he's on staff at Willow Creek in Chicago, but
the book
is much more comprehensive, starting out with an overview of today's culture
and why the way we
reach out to non-believers is going to have to change and ends with
suggesting ways we
can evangelize that fit our personalities. The emphasizes in the book is
getting all church members
involved in outreach, which impresses me since I belong to a denomination
and church that
emphasizes lay involvement in all areas of church life and down play THE
pastor idea
How do you define THE pastor idea?

I am really curious.

In Jesus,

Christian

c***@velocitus.net
2004-12-02 22:02:20 UTC
Permalink
Hello Z a n e <***@nospam.org>,
you posted in alt.religion.christian.home-church :
Hello Zane,

I haven't read the book, but I will respond to your post anyway.
Post by Z a n e
I notice on the jacket of this popular book that the author claims that
Saddleback Church went from one family to 10,000 members "without owning a
building" over a period of 15 years. That's interesting to me on two
accounts. Does he actually believe a church could consist of one family? Does
he, Rick Warren, encourage churches not to build buildings?
Matt 18:19-20
19 "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning
anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in
heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name ,
I am there in the midst of them."

This is generally accepted as Jesus' description of "church." Since
He is with me if I am alone in a coal mine in Kentucky, or on top of
Mount Everest, what He is describing is more than just "being with
me." "Church" does not mean building, but instead means "a group of
people assembled for a purpose" in the original language, Greek.

All that said, he would indeed be correct if his family (especially if
it was an extended family) met together for the purpose of worship.

As for the building; I don't remember any passages in the Bible
commanding us to build buildings. The disciples met in homes, in the
synagogue, outside, all kinds of places. But they didn't seem to
build buildings. Of course that does not mean they were opposed to
doing so.
Post by Z a n e
He does address the second issue in the book with the assumption that
buildings will eventually follow.
I stood there and thumbed through the pages, knowing that I didn't need such
a book right then. That's not to suggest that it's filled with errors or is
totally useless. Far from it. Compared to some of the other books in the
"devotional section" it looked pretty good.
I "grazed" through it, but was unimpressed. So I didn't buy/read it.
Post by Z a n e
But think of it, here's the ground-up account of the most successful church
in the USA in terms of the numbers. It comes across as a how to book for
others wanting to expand. Yet the issue of church structure/leadership is
carefully avoided. Warren explains that his views on the subject are revealed
in a cassette tape and that the purpose of the Purpose Driven Church is not
to examine such (highly controversial) issues. Since he refers to himself as
THE Pastor, I suppose I can connect most of the dots from there. And since he
is trying to appeal to just about every denomination under the sun, to
highlight any specific kind of leadership or structure would necessarily
offend more than a few.
Most congregations of Evangelical Christian churches have one "head"
or "lead" pastor. For one of those to call himself "the" pastor would
not be incorrect.
Post by Z a n e
Needless to say, there is page after page of ways to get the laity involved.
Where does the Bible divide the "laity" from the "leadership?" In the
original church there were indeed leaders and followers, but followers
were the ones who BECAME the leaders, and there were no "tall hats" in
front and "no hats" in the congregation.

I have to <snip> the rest and get to work. I have an appointment
about 30 miles away in an hour and must buy gas before I leave.

Christian
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